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Thread: Include mockups in estimates and/or price?

  1. #1
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    Include mockups in estimates and/or price?

    Good afternoon everyone,

    This is not a question regarding actual prices simply whether or not when you do a project you charge for potential initial mockups. i.e. If you creat three different possible layouts for the client to get a feel of what they want, do you build that into the price? For all three or just the one they choose?

    Thanks for any other info you could give me on this topic.

    Have a good one,
    .aaroncrunchie
    One day my ship will come in and I'll be at the airport.

  2. #2
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    Yes, absolutely you should charge for this...

    I typically break billing down into 3 phases:

    1. retainer - 10-15% of the total contract value

    2. design comps - 50% of the remainder, billed upon finalization of the design direction

    3. final production - the remaining 50%, billed upon completion

    Basically, you should be billing for all work you do on a given project, including comps...

    K.

  3. #3
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    I never do a demo without imagining that the piece could be the final site (and I always try to get away with as few demos-per-customer as possible - I always hope that one'll be enough, and most times it is) so there's no specific charge for the demo itself as, if it is the chosen design, it will become the site already outlined in the contract.

    And later in the game, unless it's a big customer that you want to impress into retaining your services, and your port's big enough to stand on its own, you should do away with demos althogether.
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  4. #4
    Fly on you crazy diamond. gingerbreadgirl's Avatar
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    I wouldn't suggest doing anything visual until all content is collected and layed out. You could get yourself into quite a bind if you sell the client on an interface or navigation sytem that doesnt fit the content later down the road. Graphical elements should come last. We have had this problem more than a few times in the past.

  5. #5
    Lunch is for wimps. erova's Avatar
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    always..

    i never do work on spec or in hope of retaining a contract.

    if a potential client wants to know whether i'm capable of handling his or her work, i suggest that person looks at my portfolio and client list, simple as that

  6. #6
    Freelance or Bust thodya's Avatar
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    It shouldn't be a case of them deciding whether you're capable or not, like you said, they should determine that from past work and references. The idea behind the demos are generally to offer a few possible directions to take things visually.

    I make design decisions for a reason. When I enter into project, my first goal is to collect as much of the content as possible, then I research the client until I know them better than they know themselves. I learn as much as I can about their industry, their clients, their own personal tastes, etc. Everything from colours, to type faces, to layout grid can be drawn from that profile. From that, I make ONE layout, and because I took the time to do my research, it's generally spot on.

    That's not to say I don't refine my design with the client, of course I do, but it's rarely anything drastic.

    Pumping out 3-4 demos basically says "I'm creative, but I really have little idea what you're looking for, so I'll just cover as much gound as I can, and hope I can get somewhere near the target." An experienced client will pick up on this.

    If you're intent on doing demos, my advice is to do variations of one design angle, not a series of totally unrelated designs.

    Back to the topic of the thread...

    The cost of the layout that is picked is covered in the overall cost of the project. There shouldn't be a separate charge for the mockup, and you shouldn't charge for time spent on anything that's not used in the approved design, you'll have to chalk that up to the cost of doing business.

    Hope this helps

    Cheers

  7. #7
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gingerbreadgirl
    I wouldn't suggest doing anything visual until all content is collected and layed out. You could get yourself into quite a bind if you sell the client on an interface or navigation sytem that doesnt fit the content later down the road. Graphical elements should come last. We have had this problem more than a few times in the past.
    Although waiting until the customer collects all the info to put together a GUI is a good (and safe) idea, your point does not take into account the ability/inability of a menu layout to expand after the launch of the site. If there's no room for expansion or changes, then I would say that there was an inherent fault with the design from the start.

    Anyway, (I would hope that it's) unlikely that a designer would go to the trouble of doing a demo based on nothing. To set up a sample menu design would need at least some sort of customer input (previous site, roughed out links, something like this).
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  8. #8
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    Hey hey! Thanks soooooo much for all the input folks, have certainly learned a lot from your posts. As usual the wonderful people at flashkit have come through.

    Have a great one,
    .aaroncrunchie
    One day my ship will come in and I'll be at the airport.

  9. #9
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    if you are doing various comps your pre comps fase is failing.

  10. #10
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    I didn't actually do any, just landed my first gig and seemed to remember a fair amount of people posting about doing a couple comps and the customer not liking any of them blah blah, hell even when I met with my client today she was like "Maybe you could do a couple different ideas and I'll see what I like" Thanks to the wonderful board members I already knew to tell her that after I figure out exactly what she wants there shouldn't be a need for several different designs!

    Thanks again
    .aaroncrunchie
    One day my ship will come in and I'll be at the airport.

  11. #11
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    Well done, crunchie!



    That's exactly the way designers need to take control of the situation - her invitation for you to present her with some designs blah blah, sounds like an opportunity for you to work for hours on what might meet her liking, and her to faff around to her hearts content.
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  12. #12
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by crunchDesign
    "Maybe you could do a couple different ideas and I'll see what I like"
    stay away from her. This is a big red flag statement. Ideally you should respond to this with a ``Will you pay me for this``

  13. #13
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    congratulations on the gig matey...

  14. #14
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    Control your presentation

    "Maybe you could do a couple different ideas and I'll see what I like"
    This is a great idea... but you are the designer. This is where it helps to have a pre established idea of what they SHOULD want. Not what they want. But what they NEED. Now you need to step out of your designing shoes and into your salesperson shoes.

    It's perfectly okay to offer a few ideas to figure out what personal tastes they have. But doing an effective website may have anything to do with what they personally like.

    When presenting design comps, you MUST sell the design. You need to provide reasoning behind the look, the useability, and the overall marketing appeal.

    For example: You have three designs that you are going to show a client. List 5 good things about each one. List five bad things about each one. Compare all three. Which one is the highest scoring one? When you go to the client, present it just like you would if it was Ms America.

    EXAMPLE:

    "Here is our first design. You have probably alreayd noticed how colorful this one is. It would really appeal to the young adult visitors and feels very energetic."

    "Here is our second design. The colors on this one are more subdued and would appeal to a slightly older crowd than our first design. It also has a wonderful sense of completeness by having the navigation integrated right into the wrap around design"

    "Our third design. This is by far my favorite. When I finished this design I knew I had something that would really motivate your visitors. The color is great, it has some eye-catching graphics that really tie into your business, and it has the same wrap around navigation style that we had in the 2nd design."

    Then wrap it up-

    "Any of these three designs would be a great asset to your business. All three of these would put you a notch above your competition's websites, but I really feel that this 3rd design would raise the bar for the goals you are looking to meet."

    You do have do be careful. You still want to meet all of the customer's needs and requests, but you need to voice your design and web-expert opinion to sell what you have made. If you present your designs with a hint of "second-guessing" then you will only invite your customer into second-guessing all of your designs as well.

    ~Barry
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    Templates for Swish 2.0

  15. #15
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    Once again folks, can't thank you enough for the information - and the speed at which it is provided!

    So what I seem to be getting here is a bit of confliction or rather it would seem comps are something totally optionable and should only be used on a customer you are really trying to win over/cater to?

    I also have another question regarding logos. If designing one to what degree should you charge royalties and licensing? Or does this fall under the category of "Charge what you feel it's worth" well this company is not big naturally - that's why the hired me So should I just charge for the design of the logo or licensing for one year? Or per use or what?

    Hope it's sunny where you are,
    .aaroncrunchie
    One day my ship will come in and I'll be at the airport.

  16. #16
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    Options Options Options

    Mock ups and comps are definately options. You have to be sure to include them in pricing. Some design groups price hourly, some say "unlimited revisions", some don't give any comps at all.

    I typically provide 3 options for most projects during the design phase. My customers are then allowed to pursue developing one as a finished project or go back to the drawing board. Typically the cost of doing 3 proposal designs works out to about 20% of the total project cost. If a customer says "I hate them all", then we can go back to the drawing board and recreate more but that just adds to the hourly total.

    My team has yet to get teh "I hate them all" repsonse... as we do our best to provide three unique designs that work for the customer's business model/industry. Typically one option is chosen for the "1st Place" choice and components of the other two sometimes integrated with other 3rd party options.

    The logo issue is another item entirely- I haven't seen too many royalty based logo fees. The few I have seen were all instances where a costly logo design (in excess of $2,500) was done and the client was starting a new company with large potential but minimal starting funds. If you do get a royalty based logo deal, you are typically "investing" in the success of the company hoping that you will make cash when it becomes a success.

    ~Barry
    SwishReality

    www.swishreality.com
    Templates for Swish 2.0

  17. #17
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    Personally, I find the best approach is to supply only one set of comps, at least at the outset. I have a few reasons for this:

    First, you, as the designer need to have the utmost confidence in anything you present to a client, and it is difficult to push multiple designs with equal enthusiasm for each. Better off to pick the option you think is strongest and back it up with a well thought out rationalization of how it fits the clients needs (you should already have these well defined from your initial discussions with them before you start any actual work.) Creating a couple of half-assed variations that you are not 100% confident in just so you can show them more options simply wastes both your time and theirs...

    Secondly, a lot of people just don't have much of a visual sense, or the ability to express verbally what it is exactly they are looking for. You can help direct this process somewhat with specific questioning during your initial consultations, but often people need to see something in front of them in order to express what it is they like or dislike about a design. Once they see something, you can go back and create a second set of comps based on their feedback which should be much more targeted towards their preferences. But there is no point in creating multiple comps until you have a stong sense of what they're looking for...

    Finally, if you offer a number of options, there is always the chance that the client will insist that you combine certain elements from each of your comps into the final design. Try to avoid this at all costs, as the elements may not be compatible, and you will end up with a watered down version of your original ideas, none of which are fully represented...

    My 2 cents...

    K.

  18. #18
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    I'm with you, deadbeat.

    I've only presented multiple demos once or twice, and without fail, the customer has picked the one I like the least, which leaves me wondering a) why I bothered and b) rooked that I have to sell the better of the two designs even harder to get it bought.

    Some might say that whichever they chose, that one is the best, but I'm afraid that this (in my book) falls under the category of 'save them from themselves'. You might say that I should let the customer have an opinioin? Why? They haven't been doing sites for x number of years, so do they deserve an opinion in a sensitive position such as this? Most probably, 9.75 times out of 10, not.

    Sometimes it is not patently obvious why one demo is better than another (blue, not red is not a valid reason), so rather than inadequately educate the customer, it is best to give them the best you can do, for the price they can afford, the first time around.
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